[Ray R]

I rode home from work today....25 miles. Some of it at 25mph and some at 55mph. Outside temp was indicated 87-94 along the way. I had probably 15 signals where I had to stop. I consistently had 4-5 bars on the temp guage. After it was on bar 5 for a bit the fan would kick on. Then after riding for a bit the temp would go back to 4 bars. Although I remain nervous based on the posts I've read, I have nothing to complain about in my first 600 miles so far.

[Danimal]

I'm thinking the dealer is not being 100% honest...... puts more blame on BRP if they tell you they have 4 in the shop with the same problem.....

Just not sure I buy their story of 4.......

[Jamison Turner]

I had my bike in for service today. On the way home, I got stuck in stop and go traffic- and after a few mins of this the check engine light came on...about 30 secs. later engine overheat flashed on the cluster then limp mode. It was very hot- like 105 on the instrument cluster. Pretty sure with all the cars and pavement it was even hotter on the road surface.

I have never had issues like this before, just started after the 600 mile service. I'm sure it's coincidence- one thing I am curious about, I have NEVER heard the fan kick in- even when stuck in traffic today with the 5-6 bars lit up.

I ended up parking the spyder and walking home (2mi)- then had my wife drive me back to pick it up, after sharing some choice words with the dealer ( It's not their fault, and they were very understanding, but I really don't think "we haven't had these long enough to know how they work" is a valid explaination when asked why this thing would overheat, and no fan kicked in)

By the time I finished my exchange of words and drove back to the spyder, it was OK when I turned the key. Rode it home without any further issues. Now I'm afraid to ride it anywhere for fear it will do it again!

So- question for the group: what's the best way to troubleshoot the fan and/or relay to see if they indeed are working?

FYI- coolant never bubbled, level is good. Oil likewise clean and at acceptable levels. No visible leaks in the line, and no other issues.

I really would rather not wait for this to leave me somewhere on the side of the road waiting for it to cool off- so I welcome any suggestions from this group of most knowledgeable riders.

Jamison Turner
Yellow Premier Edition #2755
Sacramento CA
Dealer: American Motor Sports (Rancho Cordova)

This post has been edited by Jamison Turner: 21 June 2008 - 04:12 AM

[steve n tonia]

Jamison Turner, on Jun 21 2008, 01:22 AM, said:

So- question for the group: what's the best way to troubleshoot the fan and/or relay to see if they indeed are working?

FYI ~ We put only 104 miles on our Spyder before it overheated. During that time, we NEVER heard the fan kick in, not even when it was overheating.

Thank you to all who have shared your information!! It's interesting to read all the post to see that we are not the only one with this same frusteration.

[mrfix]

To test the cooling fan and relay, open the hood, remove the service cover, remove the fuse box cover. The fan relay is the one closest to the front of the spyder on the right side of the fuse box. Pull the relay. Make a jumper and install it between pin C12 and B10 in the fuse box, Pin C12 is the upper right plug that the relay was plugged into and pin B10 is the lower left plug that the relay was plugged into. If the fan comes on when you start the spyder the relay is bad, if the fan does not work, check all the connections between the fuse box and the fan, If it still does not work, put 12 volts directly to the fan and if it still does not run, replace the fan. The fan connector can be found at the bottom rear of the radiator just below the fan.
Hope this helps
Mrfix

[Ray R]

I never hear the fan come on. I'm just assuming it comes on becasue I feel the hot air blowing on my right leg, and the temp guage drops a bar. Do you hear your fan while riding your Spyders? I used to own a couple of Buells. Now there's a fan you can hear!

This post has been edited by Ray R: 21 June 2008 - 08:31 AM

[Jamison Turner]

mrfix, on Jun 21 2008, 05:10 AM, said:

To test the cooling fan and relay, open the hood, remove the service cover, remove the fuse box cover. The fan relay is the one closest to the front of the spyder on the right side of the fuse box. Pull the relay. Make a jumper and install it between pin C12 and B10 in the fuse box, Pin C12 is the upper right plug that the relay was plugged into and pin B10 is the lower left plug that the relay was plugged into. If the fan comes on when you start the spyder the relay is bad, if the fan does not work, check all the connections between the fuse box and the fan, If it still does not work, put 12 volts directly to the fan and if it still does not run, replace the fan. The fan connector can be found at the bottom rear of the radiator just below the fan.
Hope this helps
Mrfix

Thanks, I'll try that. I'd be more comfortable with a pic that illustrates the right plce to connect a jumper, but you are pretty descriptive in your post. Anyone else every hear the fan kick in? I'd be interested to know if it is at all noticeable. I have for sure felt the heat on my leg while riding, but never heard a fan.

steve n tonia, on Jun 21 2008, 04:14 AM, said:

FYI ~ We put only 104 miles on our Spyder before it overheated. During that time, we NEVER heard the fan kick in, not even when it was overheating.

Thank you to all who have shared your information!! It's interesting to read all the post to see that we are not the only one with this same frusteration.

For sure when your dealer figures this out please let me know. It sucks wanting to go for a ride and being afraid the bike will overheat on me. It's also ridiculous that I should have this concern with a brand new peice of machinery. Hard to look cool travelling down the freeway shoulder in limp mode....

[dryheat]

Jamison Turner, on Jun 21 2008, 10:45 AM, said:

Anyone else every hear the fan kick in? I'd be interested to know if it is at all noticeable. I have for sure felt the heat on my leg while riding, but never heard a fan.

Mine kicks on shortly after it hits 5 bars, though I'm not convinced it actually pulls enough air to drop it to 4. Try just starting it up while sitting in the driveway and let it idle. Within a few minutes you'll know!

[BooneDawg]

Ray R, on Jun 21 2008, 09:30 AM, said:

I never hear the fan come on. I'm just assuming it comes on becasue I feel the hot air blowing on my right leg, and the temp guage drops a bar. Do you hear your fan while riding your Spyders? I used to own a couple of Buells. Now there's a fan you can hear!

I totally understand what your saying about the Buell Fan, must be similar to my Vrod fan...That thing moves some air, and you can hear it doing it !!!

[blown34]

I rode all day today in over 100 degrees and it never got over 4 bars, even at stop lights. I've had it to 7 bara in 80 degree weather a couple of weeks ago. Maybe its breaking in?

[steve n tonia]

Update on our Spyder...

Service manager from dealership called me yesterday afternoon. He tells me that after the BRP tech rep was at this location evaluating the situation, that they have now come up with a solution. Bare with me as I am a blonde & going to try to repeat what he said best I can:

Service manager tells me that on Monday they will be using our bike as there test for BRP's theory how to resolve the issue. Says the 2008 models have an issue with the fan relay & the overheating sensor. Says as it stands now the bike overheats at 160* as the fan has not yet turned on. I didn't completely understand their theory... but I know what he said they will be doing. They will be making changes in the computer so that the fan kicks on sooner & so that the bike should not overheat until 205* with the bike going into limp mode at 225*

I again told him we have never heard the fan. They have put in a new fan plus relay & assure me that the fan will be working correctly. Even if the bike does great on Monday, they may keep it until Tuesday as the service manager wants to have it out a few times before he says it's fixed. LoL - they have put more miles on it than we have!! Service manager told me he feels bad that we didn't even own it 48 hours before it was in the shop so he wants to make certain all is good.

My question to all of you....

Does this sound logical to you? Please share your thoughts

[Blackhawk]

I don't own a Spyder yet. However, I don't like the temperature limit change thing. 205 degrees is way too hot, IMO. Typically, I like the fan kick it when temperature went over 185 degrees. Ideally, 160 - 172 degrees constant temperature is the way to go. At least that's how cars work. I think there is got to be something wrong with either the fan relay or thermostat that isn't working right.

[garb55]

The Spyder has a Spal fan here is the link
http://www.jaycorpte...px?categoryid=2
I believe it is a 9 inch curved blade fan and it draws max 7.6 amps
Air flow is 708 CFM
They have a 10 inch high perfomance fan that has an air flow of 1070 CFM
this might be enough air I believe it will fit
But the amp draw is max 14.7 and I don't know if that Spyder would have a problem with that
What do you think Ken

[Marc]

steve n tonia, on Jun 22 2008, 08:15 AM, said:

Update on our Spyder...

Service manager from dealership called me yesterday afternoon. They will be making changes in the computer so that the fan kicks on sooner & so that the bike should not overheat until 205* with the bike going into limp mode at 225*

Does this sound logical to you? Please share your thoughts

I would question what your Service Manager is telling you. I do not believe the program can be overridden with changes like that. Maybe in problem determination mode, but I believe the default settings are reset when the diagnostic is disconnected.

[Ray R]

Lots of good discussion on the chat tonight. Here are a few of the more simple "bolt-on" suggestions:

1) Water Wetter - a coolant additive by RedLine.
2) Wrap your headers, even the 90 before the muffler, with heat tape. Since the headers are stainless, the issues with rust mentioned in another post should not be a problem.
3) Our stock fans are manufactured by SPAL. www.jaycorptech.com sells them. They have a selection of other similar fans that move more CFM. More investigation will have to be done to determine which fit.

It seemed the folks that had real overheating issues have real problems with their Spyders....like defective thermostats, coolant caps, etc.

Everyone seemed to agree that these machines are very hot to ride when the outside temperatures get into the extremes. Many folks are working on ways to divert the hot air they produce away from the rider. It sounded like there are a lot of overheated riders, but not too many overheated Spyders.

If I missed anything significant...please add!

This post has been edited by Ray R: 22 June 2008 - 10:45 PM

[Mark S.]

steve n tonia, on Jun 22 2008, 07:15 AM, said:

Service manager tells me that on Monday they will be using our bike as there test for BRP's theory how to resolve the issue. Says the 2008 models have an issue with the fan relay & the overheating sensor. Says as it stands now the bike overheats at 160* as the fan has not yet turned on. I didn't completely understand their theory... but I know what he said they will be doing. They will be making changes in the computer so that the fan kicks on sooner & so that the bike should not overheat until 205* with the bike going into limp mode at 225*

Does this sound logical to you?

Actually, it makes perfect sense, to me.

My interpretation of your interpretation is that BRP believes the computer is indicating an overheat condition when the water temp reaches 160 degrees F. This also happens to be before the fan has kicked on. IMHO, this is way to soon. Although the Spyder is NOT an automobile, it DOES use a modern internal-combustion, liquid-cooled engine. The coolant systems on most of the modern engines I'm aware of maintain coolant temps between 185 and 205 -- in those systems the thermostat doesn't even open until the coolant temp reaches 185 degrees F.

This may seem like a high temp considering water boils at 212 degree F, but coolant systems are pressurized so coolant temps CAN exceed the boiling temp of water without flashing to steam. How much higher depends on the type of coolant used and how much that coolant is pressurized. Click here for a treatise on boiling point as it relates to pressure.

The concern some have expressed at changing critical limits on the coolant system is justified. The coolant temp is measured at one place in the system; there may be (and likely are) areas in the system where the coolant temp is significantly higher. If you set limits on measured coolant temp high enough, you may create places in the system where the coolant gets hot enough to flash to steam. In areas where the coolant has superheated to steam the vapor bubbles form a barrier between the coolant and the metal reducing heat transfer. This results in localized "hot spots" in the cylinder heads.

On the other hand, BRP knows (or should know) the difference between measured temp and max system temp for this Rotax engine. If BRP has determined (presumably via data gathered from analysis of BUDS) it can raise the maximum limits on coolant temps without endangering the engine, I would trust its judgement.

IMHO, bumping the Spyder's overheat limit to 205 degrees F (as your dealer has told you BRP intends)shouldn't be a cause for concern, especially if your dealer is making these changes under the aegis of BRP's technical department.

I would, however, be mightily annoyed if I couldn't ride my Spyder until they finish "experimenting." It seems BRP is counting on you to take one for the team...

BTW, some have advocated the use of products such as Red Line WaterWetter. Personally, I don't see how these products can provide significant benefit except under the most extreme conditions. Red Line says WaterWetter can reduce coolant temp up to 30 degrees F when the coolant used is straight water. Our systems use a 50-50 glycol/water mix. The literature on Red Line's website suggests a reduction in coolant temp of less than 10 degrees F for systems using glycol/water coolant. To really gain the benefits of the product you would have to run straight water in the coolant system.

The coolant in a system is designed to soak up heat from the engine, which it then transfers to the air via the heat exchanger (radiator). Straight water exhibits better cooling properties than a 50-50 glycol/water mix (used in most modern systems) because it can hold more heat, and more readily absorb and release that heat. Red Line says WaterWetter reduces operating temps by reducing the surface tension of the water in the system. Higher surface tension contributes to larger vapor bubbles. In areas where the coolant HAS flashed to steam, the vapor bubbles attached to the metal reduce the area of the metal in contact with the liquid -- less contact with liquid = less heat transfer. By reducing the surface tension of the water, Red Line says the vapor forms smaller bubbles which more readily detach from the metal increasing the area of metal in contact with the liquid. If true, this should significantly reduce hot spots and promote more uniform temps in the cylinder head.

Water, however, boils at a lower temperature than a 50-50 glycol/water mix. Because a glycol/water mix boils at a higher temp, the system can run at a lower pressure reducing the chance of leaks. Additionally, the higher boiling point of the glycol/water mix reduces the chance of the coolant flashing to steam in the first place, thereby avoiding those localized cylinder head hot spots. Glycol also acts as an anti-freeze agent and corrosion inhibitor. Although Red Line advertises WaterWetter can provide corrosion protection (in systems running straight water), it DOES NOT provide anti-freeze protection.

To me, the benefits of switching to straight water as a coolant do not outweigh the drawbacks...

Although I understand the concept of uniform cyclinder head temps by reducing hot spots, I could find nothing on Red Line's website explaining how reducing the surface tension of the water in the system contributes to lower COOLANT temps. If someone understands this please explain it for all of us.

Red Line's entire marketing strategy is based, of course, on the premise there ARE areas in your coolant system where the coolant flashes to steam creating a hot spots in the cylinder head. To determine the benefit to be gained from a product such as WaterWetter one would have to know the number and severity of such hot spots.

I would suggest the lack of adequate air flow through the heat exchanger contributes much more to cooling problems for Spyder owners than coolant performance.

Regards,

Mark

[araneae]

We've had some pretty hot riding weather in Phoenix this last week, 115F. I ride to work in traffic most every day and I'm seeing 5 bars in the norm and I've see 6 a few times. The fan comes on when it's been at 5 bars for a while and shuts off when it goes to 4.

Bryan

[smokster]

Ray R, on Jun 22 2008, 08:44 PM, said:

Lots of good discussion on the chat tonight. Here are a few of the more simple "bolt-on" suggestions:

1) Water Wetter - a coolant additive by RedLine.
2) Wrap your headers, even the 90 before the muffler, with heat tape. Since the headers are stainless, the issues with rust mentioned in another post should not be a problem.
3) Our stock fans are manufactured by SPAL. www.jaycorptech.com sells them. They have a selection of other similar fans that move more CFM. More investigation will have to be done to determine which fit.

It seemed the folks that had real overheating issues have real problems with their Spyders....like defective thermostats, coolant caps, etc.

Everyone seemed to agree that these machines are very hot to ride when the outside temperatures get into the extremes. Many folks are working on ways to divert the hot air they produce away from the rider. It sounded like there are a lot of overheated riders, but not too many overheated Spyders.

If I missed anything significant...please add!

I know I am miserable with the right leg when it comes to the heat so far in the summer.
So if we wrap all the pipes we will do no harm to the bike?

[Ray R]

smokster, on Jun 24 2008, 10:30 AM, said:

I know I am miserable with the right leg when it comes to the heat so far in the summer.
So if we wrap all the pipes we will do no harm to the bike?

I've done a lot of Internet searching on this since the discussion last Sunday. There's a ton of information and misinformation out on the web about this subject. Even the "experts" can't seem to agree. But from what I've found so far, the only POTENTIAL damamge could POSSIBLY be to the header metal itself because the exhaust temp is higher. I'm still not clear how, but the rumor is the metal will eventually become brittle or crack. When "eventually" occurs is also part of the debate. There's talk, for example, that wrapping could take a few years off a 50 year life expectancy. They do agree on a few things, however. One is that either wrapping the header or ceramic coating the header will indeed reduce the temperatures in the engine compartment as the hotter exhaust gasses gets scavenged out faster. And another is that it will also improve performance of the engine by allowing cooler intake temperatures. And also it makes the rider more comfortable.
So in my opinion, for the 2 cents it worth, ceramic coating would be the safest choice. Wrapping would be the most effective choice, both functionally and cost-wise.

[NVR2L8]

I had a similar heat issue with my Outlander 800. Another BRP product. An excellent ATV btw.
Had the entire exhaust system Ceramic coated and BADDA BOOM, no more heat issues.
The results were truly amazing.